ok banning gay marriage isn’t hate, its simply no tolerance for those who stray away from the norm. hate is a little strong of a word for to use.
@ Norma, it’s discrimination hence HATE.
Great message, & Kudos to Kathy Griffin for supporting NO on 8.
but…. What is wrong with her face?!?! NO on bad plastic surgery. Please.
and….. NO TOLERANCE FOR THOSE WHO STRAY FROM THE NORM..?? If hate is too strong then what SHOULD it be called?
^^the “norm”!? Technically Marriage isn’t even “the norm” because it is man made. And yes, yes, it is hate you ignorant female.
Norma, it’s discrimination hence HATE.
Norm!!!!!
I’m so becoming a full blown lesbian and moving to California.
Then I’m going to have the biggest gay wedding ever!
I’ll invite only abnormal people, and transsexuals of course.
@beet,
while prop 8 is an important issue on the CA ballot, it is not the only one.
proposition 4 will require under age girls and/ or their doctor to notify a parent or guardian before an abortion is performed.
prop 8 has received an amazing amount of publicity. but prop 4 has garnered barely a whisper and just may quietly pass.
i truly hope that voters in CA who are voting merely for the president and the 8 ballot issue don’t skip over this important freedom of choice issue.
not every girl has traditional “ozzie & harriet” parents or family lives. many home are abusive – physically, mentally, and sexually. our girls deserve the right to safely make a choice.
riding my hobby horse off into the sunset now.
@purplemonkey paws: i love the expression full blown lesbian. it’s such a great visual and makes me wonder what a partially blown lesbian would be like!
Well… I’ve been dating my mother for about 14 months now… She divorced my dad about 15 yrs ago…. I
‘ve always had a thing for my Mom for a couple years now…. And one night……… Well………. you know how it goes… We’ve been dating ever since…. I’m hoping one day we can get married……. Its really a special relationship I love becuase she is my mom and I love her because she is now my woman…. It’s sweet and hot all at the same time….. I need you guys to support my relationship and not judge me…. I love her…. Don’t you guys dare judge me!!!!!!!! That would be hateful…… Vote NO on Prop 8!!!! I want to be able to marry my Mom some day legally too….. It feels right to us……. Don’t you dare judge us….
@Jeff…no, not talking about incest…just homosexuality. I’m afraid incest between adults might be a topic for next millenium, or never…
And it’s not because we’d have no tolerance for it, or judge it. It’s not a common practice regarding human individuals’ love for another.
And homosexuality is.
@ Jeff
I’ve read a lot of idiotic arguments for Prop 8 and other lame things on here… People who constantly feel the need to prove how “smart” they are and desperately seek the approval and validation of others…BUT… the comment you posted was the MOST INTELLIGENT comment I’ve ever read on this site.
Unfortunately for you most people on here aren’t intelligent enough to put their intellect before their raw emotion. Which is why they can be herded so easily by people who can.
Jeff….how come you don’t post more comments on here??? You better start, or I will find your mamma and tell her to send you to your room… Oh…and tell her not to cum with you!
@ribbet
yeah, prop 4 is ridiculous; thanks for reminding people!
@jeff
what two consenting adults do is nobody’s business unless someone’s getting hurt. so, sorry, but i won’t discriminate against you, hence your argument for prop 8 doesn’t work for me. good effort, though.
@ ribbet
…hehehe well the reason I said full blown is cuz I’m bi, so I can’t really call myself a lesbian. I’m kind of stuck in limbo, I’m not one or the other…I’m sure there are other people out there who are in the same boat.
I don’t think our government should make laws that discriminate against any group of people. Can you imagine the uproar if there was a proposition on the ballot to eliminate the rights of _______people to marry? african-americans? jewish people? old people? smokers? yet many still feel it’s okay, even morally right, to discriminate against gay people. i just don’t get it.
no on prop 8, please. thank you.
comparing apples and oranges. it’s only apples to apples if your religious, sin to sin. socially speaking no one is advocating for the legalization of all consensual relations between two adults who are related or not, but for the legalization of all consensual relations between two unrelated adults much like that of marriage. two different things which have two different impacts on society. you wanna protect society from inbreeding and genetic defects than don’t waste your time on two people who aren’t related and can’t reproduce as is.
someone IS getting hurt when two same sex people get together to have a family just like when two opposite sex people get together who can’t have a family the natural way—-if sperm banks egg donors and surrogate mothers are kept as lucrative and anonymous as they are and become an ever increasing method to supplement the natural way mother nature works to keep a species healthy and capable of survival. left unchecked sister falling in love with brother without knowing—won’t work for an advanced species like humans because were not a pack of wolves reduced to basic instincts, our survival as a species needs genetic variation to execute the finer human things that separate us from other animals.
morals? it’s all about function.
@Who Cares and for anyone who actually does….
“…..but for the legalization of all consensual relations between two unrelated adults much like that of marriage.”
You are twisting the meaning of “marriage” to meet your own selfish needs for the sake of this argument.
The definition of “Marriage” is the social institution that formalizes the decision of a MAN and WOMAN to live as husband and wife, either by legal commitments or religious ceremonies.
To allow homosexuals to have the inclusive right to enter into wedlock would mean that THAT FUNDAMENTAL definition or ideal of marriage would have to be changed… whether you are for gay marriage or opposed to it.
So if you are going to say, “Ok, then change the definition so that ALL may have equal rights…” then that is JUST what it should do. That change should include ANYONE who falls under the category of 1. “adult” 2. “consensual” and 3. “not harmful”…………
This includes Homosexuality, Incest, and Polygamy.
And before anybody spouts off worthless conjecture about “inbreeding” …. The genetic predisposition for homozygotes who are bread from a consanguineous relationship toward congenital deformities and/or mental retardation is LESS THAN 1%.
Therefor if you respect the right of YOUR OWN sister to marry your brother or father or for your boyfriend to want to marry you AND ANOTHER WOMAN (notice I didn’t say “agree to”… I said “respect the right”) then YES you should vote “no” to proposition 8.
Otherwise you should STFU and stop playing semantics.
TSS, I don’t buy your argument that fewer restrictions on the definition of marriage force us to accept any pairings or groupings of individuals.
I don’t think there is a fundamental definition of marriage that exists beyond religion. It is a social and legal construct that has evolved over many, many years. Where it once was legal to marry more than one person, now we have to choose only one lucky individual. Where it was once illegal to marry someone of another race, we can now do so freely. When laws against interracial marriage were lifted, did that open the door for sister-brother marriages? Of course not. And now, we can include same-sex partners without opening the floodgates for “uncle dads”.
The issues of consent and harm get fuzzy when we are talking about incest. Is a father-daughter relationship free from any kind of coercion or power issues? Can we truly say that there is no harm in this relationship.
I don’t know the research on adult incest, but I am familiar with the incestuous child sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is bad enough, but when it is committed by a father, mother, sibling, or other relative, it is much more damaging in general. This is partly due to issues of trust and power. It makes sense that this extends to adult relationships between close relatives.
Polygamy is another issue. I wouldn’t want to be in that kind of marriage, but maybe it works for some people. I don’t personally care, as long as there isn’t any coercion. But that’s a whole other debate, I suppose…
we live in what we consider the mayberry portion of the o.c. definitely not what you’ve seen on t.v. our neighborhood is surrounded by a very large evangelical church and several other substantially smaller progressive/ more liberally minded churches. the demographic of our neighborhood is either extremely old original owners or very young families. it’s a nice neighborhood and is fairly ethnically diverse.
that said, the bulk of the signs in our neighborhood are pro 8. in fact, there is only 1 no on 8 sign that i’ve seen. outside the neighborhood on a major intersection the various congregations come together to take over all 4 street corners to advocate their side of the issue. the pro-8 supporters far out number the con.
so, before anyone jumps on me let me say i quietly mailed in my absentee ballot last week with a NO vote on 8. okay. there is my stance on the issue.
however, i have to say that i am deeply ashamed of some of the no on 8 advocates. they have spray painted 2 houses in our neighborhood that dared to exercise their right to express their pro 8 opinions by putting up a sign in their front yards.
they wrote “stop h8te” on someones walkway and on another persons garage.
THAT IS HATE PEOPLE! wake up and heal yourself before you try and fix someone else. do you really think that vandalizing someone’s property is the way to bring them into love and charity with your cause.
i’m sure they can’t wait to get into their little cubicle and change their vote to no because you used harassment and intimidation! if anything those ignorant assholes just sealed the deal for many people who might have been on the fence to actually vote for 8.
my six year old said “mommy, isn’t it hateful to damage someone else’s things? that doesn’t make sense. maybe we should vote yes on 8 because they seem like nicer people. they aren’t hurting anyone.”
damn if you don’t understand the overall picture, she has a point.
i apologize for my lack of punctuation folks. i am pissed and i lost all punctuation ability.
@TSS
I’m not twisting anything. You are. You damn well know that “much like that of marriage” only pertains to the type of relations–UNRELATED. Marriage is between an UNRELATED Man and a Woman. Gay “marriage” would be between an UNRELATED for example Man and Man. Incest “marriage” is not comparable to either straight marriage or gay “marriage” because it would be between a RELATED for example Man and Woman or Man and Man. It is a totally different animal.
There is no harm associated with two unrelated “people” getting “married.” Just like there is not harm in two unrelated “opposite sexes” joined in marriage. There is harm in two related people (same sex or opposed) getting married and I don’t have to pull up the tribes where in breeding is practiced to show you what effects it could have if allowed on a greater scale over time–especially if there is no selection process, like the royal days of Camelot or cows, associated with it–just “love.”
PS. I’m for civil unions. I just think this whole I wanna marry my mommy just like gay people is RETARTED.
@ JK
Nicely said, but you’re talking about what you believe in your heart, and not to what is law or fact.
What should apply to one should equally and unambiguously apply to another.
The issues of consent become moot when the “child” becomes 18. Therefore this is NOT a case of “child sexual abuse” and she is legally an adult and is free to marry whomever she wants… even if it is her own father. And if you are saying that she was coerced as a child during her mental development then that same philosophy can be applied to gay individuals and their ability to be “converted back to heterosexuality” with psychological rehabilitation.
You said that marriage started as pairings or groupings of individuals. And that “pairing or grouping” has slowly evolving to include gay couples. And you (like many) are stating that this inclusion is right because it grants equality to all adults. But then you turn around and say, “ok incest grosses me out… so the evolution of marriage can stop right there”.
THAT is discrimination. Or as people on here like BEET like to say “Hatred”.
Polygamy is NOT a whole other debate… It is very much the same. It is the union of peoples based on what makes them happy without coercion or duress. It is just another idea that you can’t seem to stomach because NOW you are actually thinking outside the box and applying these “changes” to your own life. And it scares and confuses the hell out of you.
Again I’m not saying gay marriage is right or wrong… but if you’re going to point a finger and say “anyone who votes ‘yes’ to prop 8 is full of hate”… you are either ok with your own chldren marrying each other when they are of legal age or you are a hypocrite.
The only difference between “gay marriage” and “incest” and “polygamy” is that mentally and spiritually you’ve accepted one and not the others.
The question is … Is YOUR OWN acceptance and indifference toward gay marriage due to education …….or coercion?
Think About It
I disagree that the belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman automatically equals HATE. For someone to believe that marriage is a tradition institution meant to legally bond people of the opposite sex does not mean that they sit around violently HATING gays and lesbians. It means that they have certain belief system. The LBGT communities are always quick to label anything that upsets them as either HATE or a phobia…if you don’t agree with your lifestyle you either hate them or are afraid of them, there doesn’t seem to be any allowance to just disagree, and if you are someone who believes in a traditional definition of marriage they start pointing figers – HATER, HATER, HATER!! If you butt heads with someone who is LBGT you are immediately accused of being full of HATE or full of FEAR, so then who is labeling who?
I always find it hilarious when groups who are constantly clamoring for tolerance and acceptance immediately turn around and refuse to tolerate or accept any belief that is contrary to their own. Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.
Polygamy doesn’t gross me out at all. I just choose to be with only one other person. It doesn’t scare or confuse me to think of polygamy. I don’t really care if other people want group marriages and I don’t really care if they are legally able to have them.
Although you give an interesting argument regarding incest, I don’t completely buy it. For one thing, my point was not that incest “grosses me out”. It does, but that’s besides the point. Lot’s of stuff grosses me out that I don’t think should be illegal. I just think that we need to consider if incestuous relationships can be free from coercion and harm (significantly more coercive and harmful than any other relationship, that is).
I believe that, when it comes down to it, one-on-one adult homosexual relationships have more in common with one-on-one adult heterosexual relationships than they do with polygamous or incestuous ones.
I will say this: your argument is miles more reasonable and rational than any religious one. Plus, it does make me slightly uncomfortable to think about how I feel about adult, consensual, incest . But it’s not a bad thing to be shaken up every now and then.
Just.. Why do so many people care who other people are allowed to marry?
Years ago, would you have been all pissed off when different races were legally allowed to marry each other? Things change, when people start realizing that we are all human beings and all deserve the same rights.
Who the fuck cares? If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get gay married.
I just don’t understand. Let other people lead their own personal lives. Someone’s gay marriage is not going to affect your straight marriage. Or your straight fucking divorces… and more subsequent straight marriages. You can get married 70 times for all I care. It does not affect me.
I really hope my state of California doesn’t let me down. I believe that certain places have to make a stand and help lead the way for more tolerance.
And you know what Jeff? I could give a fuck if you married your mom. I don’t think it would bother me so much if your dumb ass was off the market.
@Who Cares
“someone IS getting hurt when two same sex people get together to have a family just like when two opposite sex people get together who can’t have a family the natural way…”
Uh, are you saying that any two people who get together but can’t have children “the natural way” are hurting the species? Am I hurting the human race because I choose not to have children? Are you aware that this planet is overpopulated with humans? I don’t think your argument against same-sex marriage makes sense. Yes, species need diversity to survive, but I believe we are more in danger from overpopulation than we are in dying out because of a lack of diversity.
@Lee
I think you’re right that agreeing with the prop 8 proponents doesn’t necessarily mean you are hating gay people. But if you vote to eliminate their rights, you are being intolerant and discriminating against one group of people, which I thought in this country we decided was wrong.
@Who Cares: You wrote
I don’t have to pull up the tribes where in breeding is practiced to show you what effects it could have if allowed on a greater scale over time–especially if there is no selection process, like the royal days of Camelot or cows, associated with it–just “love.â€
Uh, you know Camelot’s regarded as fictional, right?
Ok beet would you just shut up?!?!?! Proposition 8 is not hate! Gay couples will have the same rights as straight couples do. They will be allowed to do everything equal, except marry. This is a good thing because God’s design was for a man and a women to marry. Nothing else! I do NOT descriminate, and think if someone wants to live a gay lifestyle, than so be it. I definetly do NOT, though, think gay marriage should be legalized. I think if we keep lowering this country’s standards, we will eventually become a community that has lost all sense of moral whatsoever. Vote YES on proposition 8 and keep marriage sacred!!!!!
@coral
To answer your questions: No. No. No–only because I don’t know the formula you’d use for a whole world to factor all the pluses and minuses. Countries-sure. AND, I think the only thing you know is that I’m for civil unions and therefore against same-sex marriage. I don’t think you are aware that I was arguing against same-sex marriage being related to incest marriage. Nowhere was I arguing against same sex marriage in it of itself, even if I am against it. And, yes, I do know that about Camelot. Just because it’s fictional doesn’t erode its potential to illustrate a point right? Especially since the fictional is just a sweeping way to imply this is how royal people did it. I’m sorry i didn’t have a particular period castle king court royal ect in mind. To clarify the point you point to—- same sex couples who can’t have a family on their own hurt our species as much as opposite sex couples who can’t have a family on their own. The hurt has nothing to do with doing it the natural or unnatural way but with how these still developing and new solutions to fertility if left unchecked and if they become more popular without safe guards can hurt our species. The possibility of let’s say Anna falling in love with Tom down the street without knowing they are related would increase, and therefore increase the chances of risk associate with inbreeding. The fault is not in the type of couple, the method, but the whole bureaucracy that needs to plan with foresight for these methods when they begin to rival “natural selection.”
“Yes, species need diversity to survive, but I believe we are more in danger from overpopulation than we are in dying out because of a lack of diversity.”
This is off point–but if the source of overpopulation is also the source of lack of diversity the species have as likely a chance to die from a direct result of overpopulation, for example lack of water for all, as it does as a direct result of the lack of genetic diversity, for example due to virus. Genetically modified corn is an example.
@Who Cares
Thanks for explaining, I obviously didn’t get that what you’re most concerned about is the dangers of making babies using modern science instead of the old fashion way. Pardon me, but I think that is off point if the main issue of this post is voting for or against proposition 8. It might be pertinent if all gay couples used modern science to get pregnant, but they don’t. I suspect just as many straight couples get help to get pregnant as gay couples, if not many more.
Can somebody please tell me what incest and polygamy have to do with prop 8? As far as I can tell, our government does not allow couples more closely related than cousins to marry. Nor does it legalize polygamous marriages.
Whether you vote yes or no, all you are voting on is whether the California state constitution should have a section added that reads:
“only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”
@coral
(Impatiently taping) Pardon me but I think your simplistic view of this issue is the main reason why you can’t fallow along the comments here. “I’m more concerned about.” You have to be kidding me. Look I took the time out to be nice and explain something you picked up in my comment and with your simplistic view allocated to the for or against gay marriage.. If anyone should be more pertinent it’s you—if you don’t even know why someone would plump together incest polygamy and gay marriage, the you shouldn’t be asking me to be more pertinent. What’s that you say— they don’t use modern science or at least as much as straight people? REally. Too bad you don’t know why people are saying what they are saying in the first place, then you’d be able to place that …what part of “just like” in my first post didn’t you understand. I’m not going to say anything more. It’s point less because I’m not argueing for or against marriage I was responding to someone elses comment.
Ok ok ok…. Great dialog everyone….. Let’s keep this discussion going. But before we do that… I think it’s time for a little snack to recharge our minds.. So her is a quick and eazy recipe for Guacamole…
Enjoy!!! :)
Ingredients
4 ripe avocados, peeled, seeded
1 tsp ground cumin
1 ripe, medium Roma tomato, seeded, diced
½ Cup minced sweet white onion
2 serrano chilies, seeded, minced
¼ Cup chopped cilantro leaves
4 Tbsp fresh lime juice
Hot pepper sauce, sea salt, white pepper to taste
Instructions
Cut avocado in large chunks and mash coarsely in large bowl with a fork. Add remaining ingredients and blend gently – leaving some small chunks is fine. Taste and adjust seasoning with more pepper sauce, salt and pepper if desired.
Omgosh, Jeff, thank you.
Oh Jeff, how we love your monkeyshines. : )
You all are fucked in the head!!! That is no joke.
I just cant figure out how one guy can look at another guys ass and say “dam i got to get a piece of that”. It sickens me. In todays society, it is becoming more and more popular to “Come out of the closet”.
Nobody wants to know, here, or see you being gay in public. What is it going to take to get it through your dumb ass heads?
If you want to pack fudge, or munch carpet, do in in private. You don’t need to make it public.
As for having the same marriage rights, not a chance in hell! The main reason. Kids. Children should not be forced into a gay atmosphere. Then they believe this kind of action is “acceptable”. It is in no was acceptable. in fact homosexuality is spiritually an morally wrong! If it were up to me, it would not be tolerated at all.
Banning gay marriage is not hate! not in any way!! Allowing it would be the same as allowing drugs to flow freely through our great nation. There is indeed no difference. If you ask me, This nation is going to hell in a hand basket.
Have any of the thousands of gay couples that were legally married in the past year hurt anyone’s marriage yet? How would they do that? They care about their own marriages……not yours.
I’m a straight man that is married. I love my wife. I also love weddings because I LOVE wedding cake! The more weddings the better, although I think that once gays are allowed to marry, that everyone, gay and straight, should have to take classes in how to be married because ideally it should be a lifelong commitment and not just some kind of fantasy day that one has to have because of tradition. I’d vote for a law that proposes that!!
PS. You guys that are against gay marriage are seriously and obviously grasping for straws. ( :
To the people who say “kids do not need to be exposed to gays†they already have been exposed to gay references or gays when a child calls another child gay wad or plays smear the queer they are using a gay reference we all deserve to pursue happiness it says so in the declaration of independence this just goes to show how narrow minded people are what is the issue with gay marriage gay couples can not raise children well some straight married couples cannot either they abuse children or use them as pawns in a divorce at lease a gay couple cannot have a child by accident and as for the sanctity of straight marriage look at the divorce rate heterosexual people are divorcing all of the time how can heterosexual couples consider marriage sacred if they are constantly getting divorced homosexuals deserve the same rights they love each other just likes straight people and they deserve to be happy just like straight people
ok banning gay marriage isn’t hate, its simply no tolerance for those who stray away from the norm. hate is a little strong of a word for to use.
@ Norma, it’s discrimination hence HATE.
Great message, & Kudos to Kathy Griffin for supporting NO on 8.
but…. What is wrong with her face?!?! NO on bad plastic surgery. Please.
and….. NO TOLERANCE FOR THOSE WHO STRAY FROM THE NORM..?? If hate is too strong then what SHOULD it be called?
^^the “norm”!? Technically Marriage isn’t even “the norm” because it is man made. And yes, yes, it is hate you ignorant female.
Norma, it’s discrimination hence HATE.
Norm!!!!!
I’m so becoming a full blown lesbian and moving to California.
Then I’m going to have the biggest gay wedding ever!
I’ll invite only abnormal people, and transsexuals of course.
@beet,
while prop 8 is an important issue on the CA ballot, it is not the only one.
proposition 4 will require under age girls and/ or their doctor to notify a parent or guardian before an abortion is performed.
prop 8 has received an amazing amount of publicity. but prop 4 has garnered barely a whisper and just may quietly pass.
i truly hope that voters in CA who are voting merely for the president and the 8 ballot issue don’t skip over this important freedom of choice issue.
not every girl has traditional “ozzie & harriet” parents or family lives. many home are abusive – physically, mentally, and sexually. our girls deserve the right to safely make a choice.
riding my hobby horse off into the sunset now.
@purplemonkey paws: i love the expression full blown lesbian. it’s such a great visual and makes me wonder what a partially blown lesbian would be like!
Well… I’ve been dating my mother for about 14 months now… She divorced my dad about 15 yrs ago…. I
‘ve always had a thing for my Mom for a couple years now…. And one night……… Well………. you know how it goes… We’ve been dating ever since…. I’m hoping one day we can get married……. Its really a special relationship I love becuase she is my mom and I love her because she is now my woman…. It’s sweet and hot all at the same time….. I need you guys to support my relationship and not judge me…. I love her…. Don’t you guys dare judge me!!!!!!!! That would be hateful…… Vote NO on Prop 8!!!! I want to be able to marry my Mom some day legally too….. It feels right to us……. Don’t you dare judge us….
@Jeff…no, not talking about incest…just homosexuality. I’m afraid incest between adults might be a topic for next millenium, or never…
And it’s not because we’d have no tolerance for it, or judge it. It’s not a common practice regarding human individuals’ love for another.
And homosexuality is.
@ Jeff
I’ve read a lot of idiotic arguments for Prop 8 and other lame things on here… People who constantly feel the need to prove how “smart” they are and desperately seek the approval and validation of others…BUT… the comment you posted was the MOST INTELLIGENT comment I’ve ever read on this site.
Unfortunately for you most people on here aren’t intelligent enough to put their intellect before their raw emotion. Which is why they can be herded so easily by people who can.
Jeff….how come you don’t post more comments on here??? You better start, or I will find your mamma and tell her to send you to your room… Oh…and tell her not to cum with you!
@ribbet
yeah, prop 4 is ridiculous; thanks for reminding people!
@jeff
what two consenting adults do is nobody’s business unless someone’s getting hurt. so, sorry, but i won’t discriminate against you, hence your argument for prop 8 doesn’t work for me. good effort, though.
@ ribbet
…hehehe well the reason I said full blown is cuz I’m bi, so I can’t really call myself a lesbian. I’m kind of stuck in limbo, I’m not one or the other…I’m sure there are other people out there who are in the same boat.
I don’t think our government should make laws that discriminate against any group of people. Can you imagine the uproar if there was a proposition on the ballot to eliminate the rights of _______people to marry? african-americans? jewish people? old people? smokers? yet many still feel it’s okay, even morally right, to discriminate against gay people. i just don’t get it.
no on prop 8, please. thank you.
comparing apples and oranges. it’s only apples to apples if your religious, sin to sin. socially speaking no one is advocating for the legalization of all consensual relations between two adults who are related or not, but for the legalization of all consensual relations between two unrelated adults much like that of marriage. two different things which have two different impacts on society. you wanna protect society from inbreeding and genetic defects than don’t waste your time on two people who aren’t related and can’t reproduce as is.
someone IS getting hurt when two same sex people get together to have a family just like when two opposite sex people get together who can’t have a family the natural way—-if sperm banks egg donors and surrogate mothers are kept as lucrative and anonymous as they are and become an ever increasing method to supplement the natural way mother nature works to keep a species healthy and capable of survival. left unchecked sister falling in love with brother without knowing—won’t work for an advanced species like humans because were not a pack of wolves reduced to basic instincts, our survival as a species needs genetic variation to execute the finer human things that separate us from other animals.
morals? it’s all about function.
@Who Cares and for anyone who actually does….
“…..but for the legalization of all consensual relations between two unrelated adults much like that of marriage.”
You are twisting the meaning of “marriage” to meet your own selfish needs for the sake of this argument.
The definition of “Marriage” is the social institution that formalizes the decision of a MAN and WOMAN to live as husband and wife, either by legal commitments or religious ceremonies.
To allow homosexuals to have the inclusive right to enter into wedlock would mean that THAT FUNDAMENTAL definition or ideal of marriage would have to be changed… whether you are for gay marriage or opposed to it.
So if you are going to say, “Ok, then change the definition so that ALL may have equal rights…” then that is JUST what it should do. That change should include ANYONE who falls under the category of 1. “adult” 2. “consensual” and 3. “not harmful”…………
This includes Homosexuality, Incest, and Polygamy.
And before anybody spouts off worthless conjecture about “inbreeding” …. The genetic predisposition for homozygotes who are bread from a consanguineous relationship toward congenital deformities and/or mental retardation is LESS THAN 1%.
Therefor if you respect the right of YOUR OWN sister to marry your brother or father or for your boyfriend to want to marry you AND ANOTHER WOMAN (notice I didn’t say “agree to”… I said “respect the right”) then YES you should vote “no” to proposition 8.
Otherwise you should STFU and stop playing semantics.
TSS, I don’t buy your argument that fewer restrictions on the definition of marriage force us to accept any pairings or groupings of individuals.
I don’t think there is a fundamental definition of marriage that exists beyond religion. It is a social and legal construct that has evolved over many, many years. Where it once was legal to marry more than one person, now we have to choose only one lucky individual. Where it was once illegal to marry someone of another race, we can now do so freely. When laws against interracial marriage were lifted, did that open the door for sister-brother marriages? Of course not. And now, we can include same-sex partners without opening the floodgates for “uncle dads”.
The issues of consent and harm get fuzzy when we are talking about incest. Is a father-daughter relationship free from any kind of coercion or power issues? Can we truly say that there is no harm in this relationship.
I don’t know the research on adult incest, but I am familiar with the incestuous child sexual abuse. Sexual abuse is bad enough, but when it is committed by a father, mother, sibling, or other relative, it is much more damaging in general. This is partly due to issues of trust and power. It makes sense that this extends to adult relationships between close relatives.
Polygamy is another issue. I wouldn’t want to be in that kind of marriage, but maybe it works for some people. I don’t personally care, as long as there isn’t any coercion. But that’s a whole other debate, I suppose…
we live in what we consider the mayberry portion of the o.c. definitely not what you’ve seen on t.v. our neighborhood is surrounded by a very large evangelical church and several other substantially smaller progressive/ more liberally minded churches. the demographic of our neighborhood is either extremely old original owners or very young families. it’s a nice neighborhood and is fairly ethnically diverse.
that said, the bulk of the signs in our neighborhood are pro 8. in fact, there is only 1 no on 8 sign that i’ve seen. outside the neighborhood on a major intersection the various congregations come together to take over all 4 street corners to advocate their side of the issue. the pro-8 supporters far out number the con.
so, before anyone jumps on me let me say i quietly mailed in my absentee ballot last week with a NO vote on 8. okay. there is my stance on the issue.
however, i have to say that i am deeply ashamed of some of the no on 8 advocates. they have spray painted 2 houses in our neighborhood that dared to exercise their right to express their pro 8 opinions by putting up a sign in their front yards.
they wrote “stop h8te” on someones walkway and on another persons garage.
THAT IS HATE PEOPLE! wake up and heal yourself before you try and fix someone else. do you really think that vandalizing someone’s property is the way to bring them into love and charity with your cause.
i’m sure they can’t wait to get into their little cubicle and change their vote to no because you used harassment and intimidation! if anything those ignorant assholes just sealed the deal for many people who might have been on the fence to actually vote for 8.
my six year old said “mommy, isn’t it hateful to damage someone else’s things? that doesn’t make sense. maybe we should vote yes on 8 because they seem like nicer people. they aren’t hurting anyone.”
damn if you don’t understand the overall picture, she has a point.
i apologize for my lack of punctuation folks. i am pissed and i lost all punctuation ability.
@TSS
I’m not twisting anything. You are. You damn well know that “much like that of marriage” only pertains to the type of relations–UNRELATED. Marriage is between an UNRELATED Man and a Woman. Gay “marriage” would be between an UNRELATED for example Man and Man. Incest “marriage” is not comparable to either straight marriage or gay “marriage” because it would be between a RELATED for example Man and Woman or Man and Man. It is a totally different animal.
There is no harm associated with two unrelated “people” getting “married.” Just like there is not harm in two unrelated “opposite sexes” joined in marriage. There is harm in two related people (same sex or opposed) getting married and I don’t have to pull up the tribes where in breeding is practiced to show you what effects it could have if allowed on a greater scale over time–especially if there is no selection process, like the royal days of Camelot or cows, associated with it–just “love.”
PS. I’m for civil unions. I just think this whole I wanna marry my mommy just like gay people is RETARTED.
@ JK
Nicely said, but you’re talking about what you believe in your heart, and not to what is law or fact.
What should apply to one should equally and unambiguously apply to another.
The issues of consent become moot when the “child” becomes 18. Therefore this is NOT a case of “child sexual abuse” and she is legally an adult and is free to marry whomever she wants… even if it is her own father. And if you are saying that she was coerced as a child during her mental development then that same philosophy can be applied to gay individuals and their ability to be “converted back to heterosexuality” with psychological rehabilitation.
You said that marriage started as pairings or groupings of individuals. And that “pairing or grouping” has slowly evolving to include gay couples. And you (like many) are stating that this inclusion is right because it grants equality to all adults. But then you turn around and say, “ok incest grosses me out… so the evolution of marriage can stop right there”.
THAT is discrimination. Or as people on here like BEET like to say “Hatred”.
Polygamy is NOT a whole other debate… It is very much the same. It is the union of peoples based on what makes them happy without coercion or duress. It is just another idea that you can’t seem to stomach because NOW you are actually thinking outside the box and applying these “changes” to your own life. And it scares and confuses the hell out of you.
Again I’m not saying gay marriage is right or wrong… but if you’re going to point a finger and say “anyone who votes ‘yes’ to prop 8 is full of hate”… you are either ok with your own chldren marrying each other when they are of legal age or you are a hypocrite.
The only difference between “gay marriage” and “incest” and “polygamy” is that mentally and spiritually you’ve accepted one and not the others.
The question is … Is YOUR OWN acceptance and indifference toward gay marriage due to education …….or coercion?
Think About It
I disagree that the belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman automatically equals HATE. For someone to believe that marriage is a tradition institution meant to legally bond people of the opposite sex does not mean that they sit around violently HATING gays and lesbians. It means that they have certain belief system. The LBGT communities are always quick to label anything that upsets them as either HATE or a phobia…if you don’t agree with your lifestyle you either hate them or are afraid of them, there doesn’t seem to be any allowance to just disagree, and if you are someone who believes in a traditional definition of marriage they start pointing figers – HATER, HATER, HATER!! If you butt heads with someone who is LBGT you are immediately accused of being full of HATE or full of FEAR, so then who is labeling who?
I always find it hilarious when groups who are constantly clamoring for tolerance and acceptance immediately turn around and refuse to tolerate or accept any belief that is contrary to their own. Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.
Polygamy doesn’t gross me out at all. I just choose to be with only one other person. It doesn’t scare or confuse me to think of polygamy. I don’t really care if other people want group marriages and I don’t really care if they are legally able to have them.
Although you give an interesting argument regarding incest, I don’t completely buy it. For one thing, my point was not that incest “grosses me out”. It does, but that’s besides the point. Lot’s of stuff grosses me out that I don’t think should be illegal. I just think that we need to consider if incestuous relationships can be free from coercion and harm (significantly more coercive and harmful than any other relationship, that is).
I believe that, when it comes down to it, one-on-one adult homosexual relationships have more in common with one-on-one adult heterosexual relationships than they do with polygamous or incestuous ones.
I will say this: your argument is miles more reasonable and rational than any religious one. Plus, it does make me slightly uncomfortable to think about how I feel about adult, consensual, incest . But it’s not a bad thing to be shaken up every now and then.
Just.. Why do so many people care who other people are allowed to marry?
Years ago, would you have been all pissed off when different races were legally allowed to marry each other? Things change, when people start realizing that we are all human beings and all deserve the same rights.
Who the fuck cares? If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t get gay married.
I just don’t understand. Let other people lead their own personal lives. Someone’s gay marriage is not going to affect your straight marriage. Or your straight fucking divorces… and more subsequent straight marriages. You can get married 70 times for all I care. It does not affect me.
I really hope my state of California doesn’t let me down. I believe that certain places have to make a stand and help lead the way for more tolerance.
And you know what Jeff? I could give a fuck if you married your mom. I don’t think it would bother me so much if your dumb ass was off the market.
@Who Cares
“someone IS getting hurt when two same sex people get together to have a family just like when two opposite sex people get together who can’t have a family the natural way…”
Uh, are you saying that any two people who get together but can’t have children “the natural way” are hurting the species? Am I hurting the human race because I choose not to have children? Are you aware that this planet is overpopulated with humans? I don’t think your argument against same-sex marriage makes sense. Yes, species need diversity to survive, but I believe we are more in danger from overpopulation than we are in dying out because of a lack of diversity.
@Lee
I think you’re right that agreeing with the prop 8 proponents doesn’t necessarily mean you are hating gay people. But if you vote to eliminate their rights, you are being intolerant and discriminating against one group of people, which I thought in this country we decided was wrong.
@Who Cares: You wrote
I don’t have to pull up the tribes where in breeding is practiced to show you what effects it could have if allowed on a greater scale over time–especially if there is no selection process, like the royal days of Camelot or cows, associated with it–just “love.â€
Uh, you know Camelot’s regarded as fictional, right?
Ok beet would you just shut up?!?!?! Proposition 8 is not hate! Gay couples will have the same rights as straight couples do. They will be allowed to do everything equal, except marry. This is a good thing because God’s design was for a man and a women to marry. Nothing else! I do NOT descriminate, and think if someone wants to live a gay lifestyle, than so be it. I definetly do NOT, though, think gay marriage should be legalized. I think if we keep lowering this country’s standards, we will eventually become a community that has lost all sense of moral whatsoever. Vote YES on proposition 8 and keep marriage sacred!!!!!
@coral
To answer your questions: No. No. No–only because I don’t know the formula you’d use for a whole world to factor all the pluses and minuses. Countries-sure. AND, I think the only thing you know is that I’m for civil unions and therefore against same-sex marriage. I don’t think you are aware that I was arguing against same-sex marriage being related to incest marriage. Nowhere was I arguing against same sex marriage in it of itself, even if I am against it. And, yes, I do know that about Camelot. Just because it’s fictional doesn’t erode its potential to illustrate a point right? Especially since the fictional is just a sweeping way to imply this is how royal people did it. I’m sorry i didn’t have a particular period castle king court royal ect in mind. To clarify the point you point to—- same sex couples who can’t have a family on their own hurt our species as much as opposite sex couples who can’t have a family on their own. The hurt has nothing to do with doing it the natural or unnatural way but with how these still developing and new solutions to fertility if left unchecked and if they become more popular without safe guards can hurt our species. The possibility of let’s say Anna falling in love with Tom down the street without knowing they are related would increase, and therefore increase the chances of risk associate with inbreeding. The fault is not in the type of couple, the method, but the whole bureaucracy that needs to plan with foresight for these methods when they begin to rival “natural selection.”
“Yes, species need diversity to survive, but I believe we are more in danger from overpopulation than we are in dying out because of a lack of diversity.”
This is off point–but if the source of overpopulation is also the source of lack of diversity the species have as likely a chance to die from a direct result of overpopulation, for example lack of water for all, as it does as a direct result of the lack of genetic diversity, for example due to virus. Genetically modified corn is an example.
@Who Cares
Thanks for explaining, I obviously didn’t get that what you’re most concerned about is the dangers of making babies using modern science instead of the old fashion way. Pardon me, but I think that is off point if the main issue of this post is voting for or against proposition 8. It might be pertinent if all gay couples used modern science to get pregnant, but they don’t. I suspect just as many straight couples get help to get pregnant as gay couples, if not many more.
Can somebody please tell me what incest and polygamy have to do with prop 8? As far as I can tell, our government does not allow couples more closely related than cousins to marry. Nor does it legalize polygamous marriages.
Whether you vote yes or no, all you are voting on is whether the California state constitution should have a section added that reads:
“only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.”
@coral
(Impatiently taping) Pardon me but I think your simplistic view of this issue is the main reason why you can’t fallow along the comments here. “I’m more concerned about.” You have to be kidding me. Look I took the time out to be nice and explain something you picked up in my comment and with your simplistic view allocated to the for or against gay marriage.. If anyone should be more pertinent it’s you—if you don’t even know why someone would plump together incest polygamy and gay marriage, the you shouldn’t be asking me to be more pertinent. What’s that you say— they don’t use modern science or at least as much as straight people? REally. Too bad you don’t know why people are saying what they are saying in the first place, then you’d be able to place that …what part of “just like” in my first post didn’t you understand. I’m not going to say anything more. It’s point less because I’m not argueing for or against marriage I was responding to someone elses comment.
Ok ok ok…. Great dialog everyone….. Let’s keep this discussion going. But before we do that… I think it’s time for a little snack to recharge our minds.. So her is a quick and eazy recipe for Guacamole…
Enjoy!!! :)
Ingredients
4 ripe avocados, peeled, seeded
1 tsp ground cumin
1 ripe, medium Roma tomato, seeded, diced
½ Cup minced sweet white onion
2 serrano chilies, seeded, minced
¼ Cup chopped cilantro leaves
4 Tbsp fresh lime juice
Hot pepper sauce, sea salt, white pepper to taste
Instructions
Cut avocado in large chunks and mash coarsely in large bowl with a fork. Add remaining ingredients and blend gently – leaving some small chunks is fine. Taste and adjust seasoning with more pepper sauce, salt and pepper if desired.
Omgosh, Jeff, thank you.
Oh Jeff, how we love your monkeyshines. : )
You all are fucked in the head!!! That is no joke.
I just cant figure out how one guy can look at another guys ass and say “dam i got to get a piece of that”. It sickens me. In todays society, it is becoming more and more popular to “Come out of the closet”.
Nobody wants to know, here, or see you being gay in public. What is it going to take to get it through your dumb ass heads?
If you want to pack fudge, or munch carpet, do in in private. You don’t need to make it public.
As for having the same marriage rights, not a chance in hell! The main reason. Kids. Children should not be forced into a gay atmosphere. Then they believe this kind of action is “acceptable”. It is in no was acceptable. in fact homosexuality is spiritually an morally wrong! If it were up to me, it would not be tolerated at all.
Banning gay marriage is not hate! not in any way!! Allowing it would be the same as allowing drugs to flow freely through our great nation. There is indeed no difference. If you ask me, This nation is going to hell in a hand basket.
Have any of the thousands of gay couples that were legally married in the past year hurt anyone’s marriage yet? How would they do that? They care about their own marriages……not yours.
I’m a straight man that is married. I love my wife. I also love weddings because I LOVE wedding cake! The more weddings the better, although I think that once gays are allowed to marry, that everyone, gay and straight, should have to take classes in how to be married because ideally it should be a lifelong commitment and not just some kind of fantasy day that one has to have because of tradition. I’d vote for a law that proposes that!!
PS. You guys that are against gay marriage are seriously and obviously grasping for straws. ( :
To the people who say “kids do not need to be exposed to gays†they already have been exposed to gay references or gays when a child calls another child gay wad or plays smear the queer they are using a gay reference we all deserve to pursue happiness it says so in the declaration of independence this just goes to show how narrow minded people are what is the issue with gay marriage gay couples can not raise children well some straight married couples cannot either they abuse children or use them as pawns in a divorce at lease a gay couple cannot have a child by accident and as for the sanctity of straight marriage look at the divorce rate heterosexual people are divorcing all of the time how can heterosexual couples consider marriage sacred if they are constantly getting divorced homosexuals deserve the same rights they love each other just likes straight people and they deserve to be happy just like straight people
Emily, you’re a dumb cunt.